Ivy Leaguers Big Fat Meanie-Poos, Says Princetonian/Yalie
Sound the alarm! A break in the ranks! Princeton grad and Yale 1L Amelia Rawls defies the Ivy tribe this week in a column for the Washington Post, "Best and Brightest, but Not the Nicest," where she reveals the most closely guarded of our cabal's secrets: We are not bionic superheroes. We are not Mother Teresa. In fact, some of us aren't even nice.
I mean the kind of "nice" that involves showing compassion not merely because membership in community service groups demands it. The kind of "nice" that involves sharing notes with a student who is sick or lending a textbook to a friend who doesn't have one.
...these students will denounce world hunger but be unfriendly to the homeless. They will debate environmental policy but never offer to take out the trash. They will believe vehemently in many causes but roll their eyes when reminded to be humble, to be generous and to "do what is right."
What kind of horrible people was Amelia friends with in college, that she thinks thwarting sick people and teasing the homeless is normal among her peers? As for taking out the trash -- well, seriously, do you know any 18-year-olds who do that voluntarily?
If only Amelia had attended one of her safety schools, heretofore known as "nicer schools," a magical land where extramarital affairs do not exist and everybody recycles! The teenagers there have no need for video games, DVDs, or other selfish, wasteful pleasures; they spend their free time setting the table and folding their laundry and spooning soup for the homeless. Ivy Leaguers, on the other hand, are only in it for the glory. This is why the Gates Foundation is synonymous with "petty vanity project" and Barack Obama's buzzword is "stagnant selfish soul-crushing."It is these people, though, who often climb America's ladder of success. They rise to the top, partly on their own merits yet also partly on the backs of equally deserving but "nicer" people who let them steal the spotlight. Before they, or we, know it, they are the politicians and corporate executives subverting the very moral positions they espouse. They are the (frighteningly) many figureheads who purport to be leaders even as they embarrass our country and mar our history books.
by Maureen O'Connor |
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Robert says:
I bet she'd related to John Rawls.
May 2, 2008 3:45 PM
CC'07 says:
You do realize your snarky take on her article only proves her point? I wholeheartedly agree and think a good portion of people at top tier schools could use humility to kick them in the ass.
May 2, 2008 4:02 PM
D '11 says:
I agree with her. At the same time though, there are a lot of people in the Ivies who aren't like that. I suspect the ones who stand out the most give everyone else a bad name (see: everything Ivygate has ever posted).
May 2, 2008 4:31 PM
Penn '08 says:
@Robert: I was wondering the same thing.
@CC'07: I agree. This post seems to have missed the point of her column altogether. If you don't think it reflects the reality of our little cloistered academic world, then you're far more naive than the simpleton she's painted as here. I don't think her contention is that Barack Obama is spewing a message of greed and self-interest from his lofty ivory tower, but rather that people like him--i.e. a significant portion of our peers here in the Ivy League--tend to be big on rhetoric and public showings of their inner goodness when in reality these attributes are finely crafted personas that are cultivated in order to catapult them to the top. Why denigrate her for pointing out our hypocrisy? I thought the whole point of IvyGate was to champion voices like Rawls' and call our peers on their bullshit, no?
May 2, 2008 4:37 PM
Penn '07, 1L says:
FYI, It's 1L, not L1.
May 2, 2008 4:46 PM
Cpt. Obvious says:
"Nice guys finish last".
This is news to some people?
May 2, 2008 4:48 PM
y09 says:
there is a lot of truth in rawls' commentary. yale is like a four year convention for incredibly selfish people (a broad generalization, but still)
that being said, the adcoms of elite colleges won't be screening for "genuine niceness" anytime soon. and perhaps the "nicest" people don't make for the greatest leaders.
May 2, 2008 5:59 PM
dude says:
i'm p07, and i know this girl. she is not "nice." not at all. she is well known for being petty, neurotic, and selfish (omg, just like the rest of us!).
this article is a big fat steaming heap of irony.
May 2, 2008 6:08 PM
D'02 says:
Someone's been drinkin mad HATER-ade.
Hate, hate, hate, hate, hate, hate, hate.
May 2, 2008 6:20 PM
dude says:
haha
May 2, 2008 6:22 PM
Uncle Toby says:
I don't know who your "friends" are, but I have yet to meet a whole lot of selfish or mean people here. I think D'02 is about the only commenter who has it right so far. Sure, we have our Vayner and Ferriss and Cazares and Akash types, and I certainly won't deny the Ivy League has its fair share of douchebags... but on an everyday basis, Yale (and I'm assuming all the other Ivies) isn't an overtly mean place. On the contrary, really. Also, don't call Ivygate out as proof of the Ivy League being a mean place. You're reading it, aren't you?
May 2, 2008 6:36 PM
State School says:
HA! You think people in State School are any better? The ambitious state school kids are exactly the same plus embittered because they were too poor or stupid to go to whatever college they actually wanted to go to and pissed they have to be surrounded by idiots. So we take the sizable chip on our shoulder and use it as fuel for our Machiavellian delusions of Grandeur. If anything, we're worse because we feel unworthy of our ambitions and are willing to grind others under our heel in order to prove our estimation of our own self worth wrong.
I can't wait til this chick ends up at Skadden or Paul Weiss, then she really will meet the selfish and self interested.
May 2, 2008 7:16 PM
Raps says:
The girl who wrote this article is absolutely spot on. There are, unfortunately, a large number of miserable people at Ivy League schools. I go to Columbia, and I have friends at the rest of the Ancient 8 (and MIT, Stanford, and Duke), and while I've met a ton of wonderful people here, I've also met a ton of people like the author describes. A girl here wrote an article for the Spec in which she said that she was often short or unfriendly to people, but that they should excuse her because she was just really busy. There's no such thing as being too busy to be decent. The girl, of course, wasn't actually unfriendly because she was busy. She was unfriendly because she's too self-involved to consider that other people are also busy, that treating people like crap isn't acceptable, no matter how busy you are. That's the problem with the Ivy League. The people here aren't better people. They're just better at filling out forms.
May 2, 2008 7:32 PM
@Raps says:
Complete bullshit. "The people here aren't better people. They're just better at filling out forms." You can't generalize ANYTHING about the Ivy League any more, least of all THAT. You said yourself, you've met a ton of wonderful people... so again, while there may be plenty of the latter, there are quite obviously enough of the former not to reduce us all to douchebags who were good at taking tests. Come on, self-loathe much? I went to a rural, public high school that produced 77 state school kids + me. A majority of those kids were not good people. I'm not talking plain mean, but actually ignorant, arrogant, unethical human beings. With some VERY notable exceptions, I haven't seen any of that in my Ivy League school thus far.
May 2, 2008 7:54 PM
cpt. obvious says:
Ivy leaguers aren't nicer than average. They're not meaner than average. Their just smarter, more talented, or better-at-something than average.
May 2, 2008 8:14 PM
State School says:
nah, Ivy Leaguers are more ambitious and therefore meaner. The general apathetic disinterest that is the state of nature here is not the case among my friends at ivies. Of course, I wouldn't associate with any losers from an ivy any more than I would a loser from a state school, though this may be a case of my friends just being like me.
May 2, 2008 8:36 PM
b'09 says:
Wow, how delusional is this girl? People get into the Ivy League not because they are better at filling at forms, but because they are good at something, being nice usually isn't really one of those things (unless you're REALLY nice and save any African tribe), to suggest that bringing together nice people is/should be the aim of the League is just stupid.
May 2, 2008 8:45 PM
Y'01 says:
This girl needs to go out into the real world. It is full of assholes (smart and dumb, ivy leaguer and high school drop out) and short on nice people. All she's doing is describing humanity in general. Smart assholes are more annoying because they impact one's life more.
May 2, 2008 8:58 PM
Y'01 says:
This girl needs to go out into the real world. It is full of assholes (smart and dumb, ivy leaguer and high school drop out) and short on nice people. All she's doing is describing humanity in general. Smart assholes are more annoying because they impact one's life more.
May 2, 2008 9:00 PM
H'11 says:
I dunno, she touches on some pretty interesting points. I myself have definitely met some genuinely nice people here at Harvard, but no one here would disagree with me that "nice" folks are a distinct minority.
May 2, 2008 9:21 PM
Qualified says:
The braggart stereotype of the average Ivy Leaguer is, in most cases outside of WASPy legacies, completely warranted. Ivy Leaguers have worked tirelessly to achieve membership in this elite group. Thus the subsequent high amount of confidence associated with achievement logically follows.
May 2, 2008 10:00 PM
cc '07 says:
honestly folks, being nice helps. i've been hella nice to professors, and have never gotten shitty grades. i'm not saying the relationship is casual, but is a great safety net. be nice to a professor and they will totally understand if you fuck up academically. that's the real secret of college. be nice to profs and you are golden. just don't be an ass kisser and know boundaries.
May 2, 2008 10:07 PM
State School says:
CC '07:
Only a moron doesn't know to kiss your professors ass, if only to bank recommendation letters. The question isn't how you treat people in a position of authority, its how you treat your peers or those you have authority over.
Jesus, I guess the standards at CC are slipping.
May 3, 2008 12:01 AM
keggy says:
This [i-wonder-how-she-got-into-YLS] girl needs to come to Dartmouth. We'll nurse her back to non-crybaby status again. Oh, and make sure the last post you...post tells readers about the blackout date, or else people might just stop checking the site and readership will pick up again in June at a snail pace.
May 3, 2008 1:19 AM
@H'11 says:
Don't worry, that's just harvard.
May 3, 2008 11:10 AM
B '08 says:
Bullshit. This is not about the Ivy League, it's about Princeton and Yale. Leave Brown out of your generalizations. kthxbye.
May 3, 2008 3:29 PM
hey B '08 says:
are you srsly going to tell me you dont see the irony of this statement?
"...it's about Princeton and Yale. Leave Brown out of your generalizations."
kthxbye.
-P '12
May 3, 2008 4:45 PM
Ezra says:
Since when do pre-law and law school students represent the average level of humanity? Next she'll tell us that Wharton students (ergo the entire League) are megalomaniacal assholes.
I suspect her friends are more dickish than average.
May 3, 2008 4:46 PM
P '12 says:
B '08:
are you srsly going to tell me you dont see the irony of this statement?
"...it's about Princeton and Yale. Leave Brown out of your generalizations."
kthxbye.
May 3, 2008 4:49 PM
Cayuga says:
I'm actually surprised that people aren't nicer to her, at least considering how attractive that picture makes her appear.
May 3, 2008 5:21 PM
@cayuga says:
Good point. But perhaps because she enjoys wearing what appears to be a golden burlap bag. Was that mean? Shit.
May 3, 2008 5:53 PM
Y10 says:
ambitious does not necessarily equal "less nice." Well, certainly it detracts from the niceness factor but so do plenty of other characteristics. Besides, since when are "state school people" less ambitious? My friends back home go to a large state school where, based on their accounts, people are often (well, at least in the honors program) actually more cut-throat and grade-focused than my friends here!
Also: news flash! In EVERY group of people there are ones who aren't nice. In my public high school, there were "nice" people and "mean" people. At my last job, there were "nice" people and "mean" people. And at Yale, there are "nice" people and "mean" people. If it seriously took this girl that long to figure out that (omg!) a lot of people in college aren't that nice, and she's this surprised by it, she's incredibly naive. There are lots of "not nice" people in the world. The end.
May 3, 2008 6:06 PM
princeton2009 says:
i don't think people are mean here (and i have only seen "here," princeton)...i just think they are NOT nice. and i think this is more evident among people pursuing professional tracks than among others. i think the "meanness" is a combination of arrogance and just pure self-preservation...you don't wan tot be seen with the wrong person, you don't want to go out of your way to help the wrong person. i think this is because of two things. first, peopel are generally insecure at ivies because there are so many people who are better at them in something (and of course, we tend to hone into what we suck at). ALSO, i think it is partly because being "nice" has been so institutionalized. we seem to be told that we have a duty to be nice...princeton "in the nation's service" b.s. so, we try to make greater efforts to be publicly nice, to try to cure the world (to try to be good little woodrow wilsons and shirley tilghmans) and this leaves less time to be nice to those immediately affected by us.
May 3, 2008 7:30 PM
y08 says:
There will be assholes everywhere--they will be at Yale, Princeton and even Podunk State. There will also be truly nice people everywhere.
In my four years at Yale, I have encountered my fair share of assholes, yet also some of the nicest, most down to earth people who wouldn't hesitate to, as Amelia states, "sharing notes with a student who is sick." From my experience, though, I have found that, at least at Yale (since I can't very well judge the other Ivies), the latter tend to outnumber the former.
I too have to wonder at what kind of people Rawls hung out with.
May 3, 2008 7:39 PM
@ P '12 says:
"srsly"?
"kthxbye"?
Really? REALLY?! And I thought it was just in my imagination that all prefrosh are ignorant yuppies who read Ivygate and don't appreciate good spelling...
Little '12er, you have a lot to learn, and unfortunately, you won't learn it because the second you get on campus you will be recognized as the obtuse and inept person you are and thus socially ostracized.
Love,
P'10er who likes real words
May 3, 2008 9:06 PM
Y08 says:
@ P'12...to the credit of the prefrosh, it was actually B'08 who wrote kthxbye. Why are you jumping on some poor kid? Grow up.
May 4, 2008 10:02 AM
Y08 says:
@@P'12...to the prefrosh's credit, it was B'08 who wrote kthxbye. Why are you jumping on some poor kid for writing "srsly?" Grow up and stop being so insecure.
May 4, 2008 10:05 AM
@Y08 says:
"P '12 says:
B '08:
are you srsly going to tell me you dont see the irony of this statement?
'...it's about Princeton and Yale. Leave Brown out of your generalizations.'
kthxbye."
FALSE.
May 4, 2008 11:28 AM
Cool-umbia '08 says:
Don't write long comments. Nobody will read them. Also applies to cover letters.
May 4, 2008 11:57 AM
cc '07 says:
@cool-umbia '08
kthxbai!
May 4, 2008 3:09 PM
@@Y08 says:
dude your "FALSE." is false. it "was B'08 who wrote kthxbye", as Y08 said, and the prefrosh was satirizing...get it? and besides, "srsly" isn't a LOLcats term (as the aforementioned "kthxbye" is)--it's an acceptable abbreviation in the capacity of internet forum writing.
ps i suggest that you read all the posts before posting.
May 4, 2008 3:43 PM
/b/een their says:
IT'S NOT FUCKING LOLCATS: it's Caturday.
May 4, 2008 7:01 PM
/b/here says:
It's not LOLCATS; it's Caturday. Please help yourself to an the internet so you don't look like an idiot.
kthxbye. Eat a dick.
May 4, 2008 7:07 PM
Yale For Mudkipz says:
/b/rothers? In my Ivy League? It's more likely than you think.
May 4, 2008 7:20 PM
Yale 4 Mudkipz says:
/b/rothers? In my Ivy League? It's more likely than you think.
May 4, 2008 7:23 PM
Yale 4 Mudkipz says:
/b/rothers? In my Ivy League? It's more likely than you think.
May 4, 2008 7:26 PM
ALDOLF says:
WILLKOMMEN IM TROLLPARADIES. DAS IST WIE ICH MAG ES, GESCHWINDIGKEITSREGELANLAGE ZIEHT SOFORT AUF!
May 4, 2008 7:31 PM
h anon says:
rule #1 and rule #2.
May 4, 2008 10:02 PM
Husan Al-Muadkips says:
It just goes to show that ivy league schools should adhere to sharia law.
May 4, 2008 11:38 PM
pton07 says:
Um, to the person above who supposedly "knew this girl", I also "knew this girl" and she was one of the most fun, well-liked, and well-regarded people at Princeton. Nobody's perfect, but I wouldn't mind walking a day in her shoes. Ad hominem attacks are stupid and prove the point in her article.
May 5, 2008 3:30 AM
Yaaaaaale! 09 says:
I've met mostly thoughtful, well-meaning, generous and fun people here at Yale. Maybe the Law school students are too stressed out to be civil. I'm pretty this girl is off the mark, though.
May 5, 2008 6:48 AM
p07 says:
I also knew this girl and she was one of the least fun, least-liked, worst-regarded people at Princeton.
See, anonymous unsubstantiated claims are fun!
May 5, 2008 9:37 AM
and says:
gtfo newgafs
May 5, 2008 9:39 AM
p0X says:
I also knew this girl, and she was [generic compliment], [generic compliment], and not to mention one of the most [positive characteristic] people at Princeton. You all are a bunch of [generic insult]s and need to grow up!
May 5, 2008 9:43 AM
Richard C. says:
new gaffs
May 5, 2008 1:38 PM
y09 says:
not that EVERY person here is well-adjusted or nice, but my admissions officer told me after i got in that her goal was to admit nice, interesting people. for the most part, id say yale has done a good job (notable exceptions: vayner, schvartz)
May 5, 2008 1:39 PM
D says:
response by a dartmouth alum:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/05/04/AR2008050401569.html?sub=AR
May 5, 2008 2:02 PM
pton says:
i think this girl is just mad because people at princeton made fun of her for getting arrested for stealing a cookie from the u store.
May 5, 2008 2:17 PM
Desu @pton says:
GB2 GAIA GAFS.
May 5, 2008 2:40 PM
@P'10er who likes real words says:
Rawls was talking about people like you. Brighten up and be positive. (And yes, I do recognize the irony of this comment, but I do think there is a difference between reply and counter-reply).
@P'12, that was a funny comment.
-P'09
May 5, 2008 3:40 PM
harv343 says:
she eats babies, and kills puppies, and is a drug addict! lets all slander her and make random shit up b/c she wrote some dumb article!
May 5, 2008 4:44 PM
wh09 says:
i would hit it
May 5, 2008 5:24 PM
BigRedTape says:
I cannot believe the general lack of commentary re: the author's general hotness. I'll help:
I would hit it (Rawl-dog?), and not say 'thank you.'
May 5, 2008 7:14 PM
wh92 says:
It's a trap.
May 5, 2008 10:50 PM
penn08yankee says:
Just sent an email to my buddy at yale law. Apparently she is even hotter in real life. She can write anything she wants, as far as I'm concerned.
May 6, 2008 11:06 AM
D'04 says:
i dont get what the big deal is with this op-ed. It doesn't reveal anything except maybe something about her personal experiences. 100% agreed with earlier comments which basically say that she is just describing the mass of humanity (or Northeast, liberal America, or perhaps our generation or some larger segment of society than just the Ivies). Some people are genuinely nice, some not, virtually all are "selfish" in the broad sense of the term.
With regards to the response letter by D alum - Dartmouth is no gleaming exception to the whine that "most people are not nice" - both authors clearly have not lived enough in the real world.
May 6, 2008 12:32 PM
D'04 says:
i dont get what the big deal is with this op-ed. It doesn't reveal anything except maybe something about her personal experiences. 100% agreed with earlier comments which basically say that she is just describing the mass of humanity (or Northeast, liberal America, or perhaps our generation or some larger segment of society than just the Ivies). Some people are genuinely nice, some not, virtually all are "selfish" in the broad sense of the term.
With regards to the response letter by D alum - Dartmouth is no gleaming exception to the whine that "most people are not nice" - both authors clearly have not lived enough in the real world.
May 6, 2008 12:38 PM
penn0866 says:
I think this article is right on. It's caused a lot of controversy because it hits close to home for some people. I didn't interpret the article as being a generalization about "everyone" at Ivies though...I think it is pretty clear she is talking about a certain subset. That the subset is on the blogs making a stink doesn't surprise me in the least.
May 6, 2008 1:31 PM
Cornell08 says:
Can we please just focus on how hot she is. Thanks.
May 6, 2008 1:54 PM
Homie says:
I would hit it if she promised not to talk. Being a law student makes her less hot for sex but WAY more hot for bukkake.
May 6, 2008 6:09 PM
/b/eat it says:
No. I would fuck her, definitely, but only if if she promised to make me a sandwich afterwards.
May 7, 2008 12:21 AM
shogg says:
She's both hot and smart. So which will out in the end? And I do so really want to know, is she herself a truly nice person. Anyone?
tell me at shoggabotz@yahoo.com
May 7, 2008 4:29 PM
@/b/eat it says:
You mean be in a sandwich. As in DP. Niiiice.
May 7, 2008 4:57 PM
colum06 says:
Is shogg planning on stalking her? Thats pretty creepy dude.
May 8, 2008 10:51 AM
Yale'11 says:
I completely agree with the commentary. I've gone to Yale just for one year and the lack of humility pisses me off. Students will venture to foreign countries for service trips, but back in New Haven, the homeless are a matter of humor. Students are afraid to walk down the street at night and talk to those less fortunate to them. Elite circles of friends where the students born to ordinary, blue collar parents are not permitted. TWO FACED
May 8, 2008 1:15 PM
@Yale'11 says:
Would you really walk around New Haven at night talking to bums? I'm pretty sure a few people have been mugged and or stabbed doing that. Not talking to the less fortunate at night seems more a matter of common sense than eltism. Also, I've seen a pretty good sampling of the freshman, and I highly doubt groups are actively excluding because they are "blue collar." Can you really tell who is blue collar anyway? Maybe those groups just don't like you because you're you (by you I meant the general you, not the actual "you", of course).
May 16, 2008 10:02 PM
@Yale'11 says:
Would you really walk around New Haven at night talking to bums? I'm pretty sure a few people have been mugged and or stabbed doing that. Not talking to the less fortunate at night seems more a matter of common sense than eltism. Also, I've seen a pretty good sampling of the freshman, and I highly doubt groups are actively excluding because they are "blue collar." Can you really tell who is blue collar anyway? Maybe those groups just don't like you because you're you (by you I meant the general you, not the actual "you", of course).
May 16, 2008 10:05 PM