@D'07
"That said, I don’t think that [false rape accusations] happen enough to say that a woman can’t claim to have been raped if she 'participated'"

So you're saying a woman CAN claim to have been raped, even if she 'participated'?! (why is it in quote marks anyway?)
Also, what you think does or does not happen enough should have no bearing on making false rape claims (or real rape claims for that matter) - simply, it should not matter so why are you even bringing it up?

"Women are pretty clear about when they’re enjoying sex. If those signs are not present, run away. Far away."
If those signs aren't present during sex, surely it's too late by then anyway?

Read this...

http://cfcamerica.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=1386:little-did-i-know-she-was-only-16-years-old&catid=67:letters-to-the-editor&Itemid=285

You guys are blowing this way out of proportion. Obviously, some people have nothing better to do than over-analyze an opinionated article and rip apart the work of a poor girl who just wanted to present another perspective. On top of that, some people are seriously misquoting the point of the article. Neagu's not saying that the girl should be responsible for rape; she is questioning why, if both parties were inebriated and committed sexual acts, the male is always to blame. The point she is trying to get across is the gender inequality socially accepted in this sort of situation. She is not saying that the rape victim is responsible for a rape. In fact, she does not even refer to rape specifically, but only refer to this specific situation of two drunk individuals. This is evident if you would just read the first portion of the article:

"Imagine the following scenario: A girl goes to a frat party, drinks too much and has sex with a guy she just met. The next day she does not remember anything. When she finally realizes what occurred, she wants her partner charged with rape."

LAY OFF THIS POOR GIRL! She wrote this article in hopes of having something interesting enough so that readers will actually read the article instead of glancing at the page and moving on to a more interesting section. Unfortunately, her article may not have been worded well to support her main point and she might have made statements that she did not think through completely. This does not give anyone an excuse to make these giant leaps, put words into her mouth, and then condemn her for things she is not saying. Just please give this a rest.

I'd say it's wrong to consider consensual drunk sex rape. There's a legal argument to be made that someone who's drunk can't legally consent to anything, but I think this misses the point. If they consent, the way D '07 understands it, then it's not rape, even if it wouldn't hold up in court. If the girl and the guy both did it freely, then neither should accuse the other of rape. Obviously having sex with an unconscious individual is (and should be considered) rape. That's why this article is bullshit.

christianarchisti is back! IvyGate lives on!

christianarchisti! welcome back, you've been missed.

This is the most hilariously offensive, misguided, idiotic thing I've seen posted in a college newspaper. I mean, that first sentence would get shredded by anyone who's taken a freaking junior high history class. I honestly couldn't take the writer seriously after I read that.

@D'10 Read the entirety of the comments section on the Princeton article. The RIDICULOUS analogies are incredibly alarming.

@D'07 - Okay, understand your clarification. I think the issue is that people are using different varieties/ definitions/ conceptions of the word "consent." I agree that sex without "consent" in the common usage sense is deplorable. I disagree that sex without "consent" in the legal sense is deplorable. In the legal sense, an intoxicated woman cannot give "consent" so any sex with an intoxicated woman is "rape" if she says so. By that definition, I am guilty of rape and know tons of rapists. I therefore have an issue with that definition. I don't understand why a man can give "consent" while intoxicated, but a woman cannot. Further, lets me honest - the vast majority of hook-ups in college occur while both parties are intoxicated.

@Ada - I'm sorry, but can you please explain to me how you know that "less than 5% of sexual assaults are reported"? That might possibly be the STUPIDEST statistic I've ever heard someone cite. If they weren't reported then how do you know they happened???? Further, what is your definition of "sexual assault" for all these sexual assaults that are occurring?

@Princeton '12 - yes, I do know of two cases where women made certainly accusations. There are two instances I know of involving a fraternity and another involving a sport's team in which two different girls accused a number of guys of sexual assault. In at least the fraternity instance, the girl was embarrassed by the fact that people had found out about her drunken behavior and a guy she had slept with after just meeting him. Knowing both him and her and having seen their interactions earlier in the night, it was clear that she was all over him. She accused some other guys in the house of sexual assault because they were walking around naked (in their own house where they lived!) and claimed that they entered the room at one point and she felt "intimidated." She was never touched by any of them, yet the school and the police pursued the incident and their reputations were smeared. Fortunately, they hired a good attorney and the prosecutor agreed that if they performed community service and stayed out of trouble for a year, the charges would be expunged.

Also, take a look at the Duke Lacrosse case from 2006. Then try to tell me that questionable accusations don't happen.
Instances of women making questionable accusations and blaming others for their own behavior is all too real. The op-ed is poorly written and not nearly sufficiently nuanced, but it does raise some important issues.

"A murder victim has never been required to resist an attacker to prove that the attacker’s actions constituted murder."

am i the only one for whom that quote throws up giant WTFs? i can't even begin to touch on all the logical fallacies of this as a reasonable analogue for rape...

Rothschild rapists on data base are arranged and characterized and categorized by type of freak, favorite weapon of freak during violent rapes, the volume frames a freak can incriminate innocent accomplices, etc.,etc.,etc., there is a c.i.a. value and an n.s.a. value inherent in every rapist on file.

I suggest you ask the Rothschilds for the definitive definition of a rapist, in creating the u.s.a. they created the World's most reknowned rapist next to the Rothschilds themselves, they created america as a monarchy who worships rapists from every angle even inside out, when it comes to the act of rape an answer cannot be accurately characterized unless you have a comment from your federal reserve bank owner and king of america David de Rothschilds to help guide you in the formulation of your understanding, ask satan ask Rothschild.

Yale Man 07 said "perhaps because she wants attention?"
Seriously?

http://www.dailyprincetonian.com/2010/02/23/25270/

Response in the Daily Princetonian

OPINION | Column | Feb. 23
What constitutes consent?
By Katie Rodriguez , Avital Ludomirsky, Amanda Yamasaki, and Jillian Hewitt
Guest Contributors

Published: Tuesday, February 23rd, 2010
As sexual harassment/Assault Advising, Resources and Education (SHARE) peer advisers and SpeakOut advocates, we feel compelled to respond to Iulia Neagu’s column on Monday, “The Real ‘Sex on a Saturday Night.’ ” To begin with, we would like to challenge the author’s assumption that sexual assault only happens to women, with men as the perpetrators. The person responsible for sexual assault is the initiator of the action, who may not necessarily be male. Sexual assault occurs in same-sex sexual encounters as well.

Consent in sexual encounters is necessary. Effective consent is informed, freely and actively given by all parties and mutually understandable in words or actions. Consent indicates an agreement to engage in mutually agreed-upon sexual activity. There are circumstances where even when consent is given, it is not valid. Consent is invalid when forced, threatened, intimidated or coerced, when given by a mentally or physically incapacitated person or when given by a minor.

The initiator of sexual activity is responsible for gaining consent before any permissible sexual activity may occur. The person from whom the initiator wants consent, therefore, is in a position to give — if the person so chooses — effective, informed consent. This consent-based doctrine recognizes and highlights a simple principle — our personal sovereignty. We have the right not to be acted upon unless we inform the initiator of our desire to engage in sexual activity. Our silence is not our permission.

The principle of consent allows us to apply responsibilities uniformly to all parties involved. The hypothetical situation presented by Neagu takes away all responsibility from the initiating party. A murder victim has never been required to resist an attacker to prove that the attacker’s actions constituted murder. A drunk or sober driver who hits a drunk pedestrian is responsible for the accident, regardless of his or her state of inebriation. It is not common practice to refer to victims of other crimes as having “gotten themselves robbed” or “gotten themselves shot.” So why is it an acceptable practice to assume that a person is somehow responsible for being sexually assaulted?

If someone drinks to the point of an “advanced state of inebriation,” there are certainly expected consequences. These could include hospitalization, blood alcohol poisoning and a massive hangover. To give carte blanche to perpetrators to take advantage of an inebriated person, however, is unacceptable. We pose the thesis that someone should be able to walk across campus naked and not have his or her bodily integrity disturbed by violence. Yes, the naked person would be breaking lewdness laws, but that violation would not entitle others to perform sexual acts on this individual. Agreeing to drink is agreeing to drink — nothing more.

With regard to Neagu’s assumption that it is easy for women to report sexual assaults, we would like to point out that among college women, less than 5 percent of sexual assaults are reported. Moreover, only 2–3 percent of these reports are false, a percentage on par with the statistics on false reports of burglary or grand theft auto. With these numbers in mind, it is imperative to believe someone who reports a sexual assault.

With opinions like the author’s so prevalent on campus, we must hold each other accountable in our community. We are all here because we are academic leaders, and we challenge you to be leaders in your personal lives as well. We agree with Neagu’s statement that situations like this should not happen in the first place. They do occur on our campus, however, and we must therefore learn to be friends — not bystanders.

Yes, I do know somebody who was falsely accused of rape. All legal charges were dropped, but the College still went ahead and disciplined him (year-long suspension) for "conduct unbecoming of a Dartmouth student." Nicest guy ever, would never have done such a thing. Just fooled around with the wrong girl (who, surprise surprise, also had a boyfriend at the time -- the rape accusation came after the boyfriend found out she had been fooling around, of course).

Does that mean that many girls are not sexually assaulted, and that sexual assault is despicable? No. Is it lamentable that the shame in difficulty involved in following through with rape charges against a scumbag douche often leave victim without justice? Absolutely. Are some people nevertheless shameless? Yes.

princeton12, see:kobe.

"perhaps because she is embarrassed by her behavior? perhaps because she wants attention? perhaps because the guy turns her down/ is mean to her) that she was “raped” then it is “rape.”

I keep on hearing this argument made. I just have one question: have you guys ever known a woman who accused a man of rape and then had him convicted after consensual casual sex? I hear about this legendary evil, malicious slut who "cries rape" because she was turned down or because she had regrettable sex but I've yet to meet one.

Do you guys know what happens to you if you press charges for rape? Do you think that legal authorities just take a woman's word for it? I'm sure you have no idea the kinds of physical and psychological examinations (that are like a second punishment) that a woman goes through when she decides to press charges. It's almost impossible to successfully prosecute for date rape or rape in which the woman was acting in any remotely morally questionable way. It's hard enough getting a prosecution for clean-cut stranger rape.

The situations you're referring to so casually just don't exist, okay? Pressing charges for rape is an incredibly involved process and you need ironclad proof (so ironclad that many woman who have been raped don't press charges or their rapists go free). I'm getting the sense that you guys are totally talking out of your asses and have no familiarity with this process at all because it certainly doesn't sound like you do.

I've never met a woman who takes the rape accusation lightly. I know many women who have been sexually assaulted (including me) who have never gone to authorities or even gotten psychological help due to shame and fear that they won't be believed or will have their character and choices insulted.

My keyboard is broken. I meant to say "regrettable sex *for* rape" and "aware *as* possible."

I wasn't at all talking about legality. "Consent" is purely psychological, so it's impossible to prove or disprove beyond a doubt. So, the accusation of rape is always possible. My point was that, just as men are encouraged to be as aware of possible of a woman's state of mind before engaging in sexual activity, women should be encouraged to understand the gravity of a rape accusation and to not mistake regrettable sex or rape. For instance, I once had sex with a girl when I didn't want to have sex and with whom I didn't want to have sex, because I was worried about what she might tell her friends if I didn't. Was it consensual? Not really, I didn't want to, but I went through it anyway. Was I raped? Hell no.

You are wrong. Legally, if a woman is drunk and decides the next morning or a couple of days later (perhaps because she gets made fun of for having sex with the guy? perhaps because she is embarrassed by her behavior? perhaps because she wants attention? perhaps because the guy turns her down/ is mean to her) that she was "raped" then it is "rape." Whether or not she was enjoying the sex and the signs of such were there, it is legally "rape" because legally a woman cannot "consent" to sex when she is drunk. THAT is what the op-ed is trying to address and it is an issue that should be addressed.

Uh, Yale Man, obviously there are some examples of men being falsely accused of rape. I agree: "whoops!" is not rape. Yes, a false rape accusation will ruin somebody's life, even if they are exonerated, and is a despicable thing. That said, I don't think that it happens enough to say that a woman can't claim to have been raped if she "participated" (as for "consenting": obviously, consensual sex is not rape, I don't know what you hope to reveal with that no-brainer). It's pretty easy to ask somebody if they're sure that they want to go through with something. It's also pretty easy to determine whether or not somebody is so drunk that they're not capable of making that decision. Women are pretty clear about when they're enjoying sex. If those signs are not present, run away. Far away.

Of course, it would help for sexual health programs to emphasize to women that bad sex is not rape. Having sex that you regret is not rape. Having sex when you're drunk is not rape. Having sex with an ugly dude is not rape. Having sex because you hate yourself and want to abuse yourself is not rape. No, rape is when you are forced against your will to have sex. People should think long and hard about whether or not this has happened before they make any claims.

The comments on that Princeton article are SERIOUSLY disturbing! Do women really think that way?

I agree that it is rape if a guy forces a girl to have sex. I agree that it is rape if a guy has sex with an unconscious girl.

I do not agree that it is rape if a guy and a girl are both drunk and they have sex in which the woman "consents" (obviously not in the "legal" sense b/c she is drunk) and actively participates. Why is the woman any less responsible for this than the man? Trust me, plenty of guys have woken up the morning after a night out and had deep regrets about some unattractive woman they hooked up with, but they don't then accuse that woman of rape. Similarly, a woman has no right to accuse a guy of rape when she consented and participated, even if the consent and participation occurred in a drunken state.

Though the article is poorly written, I think this latter case is what the op-ed is attempting to address.

@D11: Comment unapproved!

D11: How DARE you.

That was an incredibly irresponsible comment, D11.

Oh God, that's terrible. That's horrific. "Since the beginning of time, society has taught us to blame the man" erm, does she know anything about rape laws before the 20th century? Or outside of the Western World?