Cornell Fan Admits Cornell Does Not Belong in the Ivy League
We’ve heard it all before. “Cornell shouldn’t be in the Ivy League.” “It’s practically a safety school.” “You’re not really an Ivy Leaguer if you majored in the Ag School.” “Yes I am and you look like a pre-op transexual.” What has not been discussed is where the Big Red would go should they leave or be kicked out of the Ivy League–it being an athletic conference after all. Stepping up to fill that void in the discourse is Cornell basketball blog The Cornell Basketball Blog. And boy are they setting their sights high.
Most of the Big 10 schools are large public universities set in collegetowns. The Big 10 schools not only excel in athletics, but they are also regularly ranked among the top national academic universities at both the undergraduate and graduate levels.Cornell is very much all of the above.
Genius! By moving from the Ivy League to the Big 10/11, Cornell would improve their academic standing from the eighth-best in the conference to second-, third-, or fourth-best in the conference. But what about being competitive in athletics?
As for athletics, Cornell is a national power in several major sports, including indoor and outdoor track (men’s and women’s), wrestling, ice hockey, and lacrosse. Even the Cornell men’s basketball team made two consecutive trips to the NCAA Tournament and finished 2008-2009 with an RPI better than a pair of Big 10 teams (after finishing 2007-2008 ranked ahead of five Big 10 teams).
Wow! They finished better in the RPI than two Big 10 teams this year! If only they had played some of them. And that certainly is a lot of sports Cornell is nationally competitive in. It’s hard to think of a single Cornell sports team that isn’t good. This is a brilliant idea. It frees Cornell athletics from the shackles of the Ivy League and opens a spot for a school that Harvard and Princeton won’t be embarrassed to be seen with. I hear Northwestern may be interested.
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March 31st, 2009 at 5:44 pm
Cornell has great academics with a student body over 12,000. The top half of the student body can compare with any school in the country, including the elitist wimps at HYP. And remember, those schools are much smaller. Cornell is also generally very good in sports in the conference. And don’t forget we take many rural kids from upstate New York, not all suburban pricks from New Jersey.
USNWR has Brown and its hippie freaks BELOW us. So talk about them. Cause I can kick any Harvard guy’s ass, and so can any of my frat brothers.
March 31st, 2009 at 5:56 pm
Cornell a national power in indoor and outdoor track? BS. Just because you send one or two qualifiers to the national competitions does not make you a national power in a sport. Yes, Cornell is the dominant ivy league track power, but suggesting that it makes you a national track power is a bit of a stretch.
March 31st, 2009 at 6:47 pm
mmm, MIT would be fun. Who cares if they don’t have many of the sports people might be interested in,, they have more scary science and math olympiads than the others :/
March 31st, 2009 at 8:15 pm
Cornell doesn’t even have the best overall athletic program in the ivy league…why would they ever move to the big 10/11 (see pretty much all past director cup standings)
March 31st, 2009 at 8:17 pm
I’m sorry but two years of basketball success doesn’t mean anything. Penn and Princeton are the only real ivy basketball programs.
March 31st, 2009 at 8:41 pm
Perhaps IvyGate should have a poll for which school should replace Cornell? Personally I’m inclined towards MIT, but nowadays I think even Tufts outdoes the Big Red these days.
The school with the biggest “we’re just as good as an Ivy!” chip on it’s shoulder is definitely Duke, probably followed by UChicago. Too bad neither of them is. Stamford and Cal at least know they’re stuck out west.
March 31st, 2009 at 8:54 pm
I love UChicago! It’s beautiful, has the best PhD programs in the country, and has an up and coming undergraduate college that’s easily on par with Columbia, Brown, Penn and Dartmouth in terms of quality, if not acceptance rate. That, too, will change though.
March 31st, 2009 at 10:14 pm
Me AND mY FRAAT brOOO theres willLLL kIICK your ELciiIItiIEST ASSESsssssssssss WOOOOOOOOO
March 31st, 2009 at 11:53 pm
I love college as much as you, iheartcollege, but to claim UChicago has “the best PhD programs in the country” is a enormous stretch. We can argue about it vs some other ivies forever, but the fact is most people just don’t agree. It’s like how Columbia and Penn can try to break into the HYP argument as much as they want, and they may be right, but it will never be accepted.
April 1st, 2009 at 2:51 am
“the top half of the student body can compare with any school in the country, including the elitist wimps at HYP. And remember, those schools are much smaller. Cornell is also generally very good in sports in the conference”
yes, “those” schools are much smaller, which means you ought to be raping us all in athletics by virtue of having an undergraduate student body twice the size of any other ivy
April 1st, 2009 at 9:07 am
what were they thinking?!?
http://media.www.browndailyherald.com/media/storage/paper472/news/2009/04/01/CampusNews/Second.Sds.Attempt.To.Storm.U.Hall.Ends.In.Tragedy-3691438.shtml
April 1st, 2009 at 10:53 am
“what were they thinking?!?”
It’s April Fool’s Day.
“USNWR has Brown and its hippie freaks BELOW us.”
Hmmm… Maybe that has something to do with endowment size (something I imagine you and your “frat brothers” compare often) rather than the quality of academics? Which school is harder to get in to?
Better to be the peace loving, grass smoking, hippie of the Ivy League than the b-grade athlete with a c-grade mind.
April 1st, 2009 at 1:23 pm
WTF is up with all of the Cornell hate. Cornell may not have the best history/sociology departments, but who fucking cares. When it comes to the hard sciences or engineering, Cornell rapes pretty much every other university in the Ivy league.
April 1st, 2009 at 2:16 pm
I love the poll idea on which schools should replace Cornell. Let’s all agree that we should throw that trade school Penn U into the mix — it’s so gratifying that they’ve finally been exposed as irrelevant punks. 10yrs of USN&WR data manipulation has finally collapsed on them! We all know what really counts in our society — acceptance rates…and America has finally spoken the truth. Penn U & Cornell are essentially the same school — an albatross around the league’s neck. BTW — did any of you know that Penn U offers an undergrad nursing degree? Astonishing! Penn U — please stop embarrassing yourselves by insisting you can be mentioned in the same breath as glorious Princeton — that truly sickens me.
So the hating part is over. Now to the fun — who do we invite as replacements? I would like to open up the discussion with Stanford and Duke — arguments pro/against? Any other suggestions?
April 1st, 2009 at 2:40 pm
Nursing degree?? Really?? That makes Cornell’s courses in farming and horticulture downright elite!
however, Penn has a great football team. Go JoePa!
April 1st, 2009 at 3:48 pm
big 10? cornell? you must be joking right. sure big 10 schools are rather decent academically and have some gem programs, but don’t forget that these are huge football schools that attract 80,000 or so people to games. cornell’s stadium is nowhere near that, and their team sucks in the ivy league. they are about three levels below being able to compete with the likes of a penn state or a michigan (before this year’s dreadful season.)
whoever wrote that piece had likely never been to a football game at a big 10 school.
April 1st, 2009 at 7:54 pm
Brown alum, I’m sure Cornell’s c-grade engineers would rape any of Brown’s students anytime.
April 1st, 2009 at 9:41 pm
Columbia and Princeton have pretty respectable engineering programs, particularly on the graduate level. It’s not like Cornell simply runs away with that title.
And if Cornellians think they have drastically better Math and Physics programs than Princeton, Harvard, and other Ivies, they truly do not deserve to be lumped in with us.
They are hopeless in the social science and professional graduate degree fronts. I’d vote for Stanford to be next in, but since it is a sports league we need someone closer. Unlike Stanford, we don’t have jocks that don’t need to go to class so they can just fly across the country every weekend.
April 2nd, 2009 at 1:26 am
Stanford is the prime example of how great academic schools can also have strong athletics. Ivy league schools could do the same thing if they changed the league bylaws, there would just be a wider discepancy between the academic students and the athletes as a result. It would take a few years, but there is really no reason any ivy leauge school couldn’t be nationally competitive in big sports, it would just take a major recommitement of resources and priorities.
btw, for its size, cornell isn’t that great is athletics except for wrestling, hockey, and lax (and the ivy leauge is pretty decent overall in the last two). Princeton and Harvard are probably better overall athletic schools
April 2nd, 2009 at 1:39 am
Tyrant: You seem to be confusing UPenn with Penn State. Joe Paterno coaches Penn State’s football team. Penn was 3rd in the Ivy last year with a 6-4 overall record.
According to from the Nat. AD’s association, Cornell was 3rd in the Ivy behind Princeton (#60 nationally in D1) and Harvard (#61). Cornell was #75 nationally. The worst school in the Big-10 was Northwestern at #40.
The Ivy League is after all an athletic conference, which would rule out UChicago and MIT as potential members. Personally I think Georgetown would be the best replacement for Cornell based on it’s size (6853 undergrads), age (founded in 1789), and academic reputation (#23 USNWR). Yes, this would piss off some Hoya basketball fans, but perhaps it could be a non-basketball member. Not to mention that Washington, D.C. is substantially closer than Palo Alto, Evanston, or Durham. In fact Georgetown is as close or closer to Penn, Princeton and Columbia compared to Ithaca as well as a negligible extra 29 minutes driving to Yale. What do you guys think?
April 2nd, 2009 at 3:21 am
i would be more inclined to a patriot league team, like lehigh or the service academies. Hopkins wouldn’t count, ’cause it is d3 in all but lax
April 2nd, 2009 at 8:53 am
You kids are all missing the original point of the meme. It was to irk the prestige whores who solely attend Cornell based on its ‘Ivy’ status by pointing out that Cornell is much more akin to a Big 10 school in many ways.
April 2nd, 2009 at 2:11 pm
g-town is a solid replacement — they’ve built their own reputation and brand without the artifical benefit of ivy status, so it would improve our league very well as a distinct, prestigious choice. the dc location is an added plus — and opens up further access to the political corridors of power. i think it would be great to have an ivy school in the dc
i concede that stanford is just too far away to make it work logistically within the athletics framework. so I guess I would then still consider Duke — academically on par, perhaps better than penn, cornell or dartmouth, and with name value and prestige that is superior. with duke, you could still have them participate in most varsity athletics
so for now — Georgetown & Duke replaces Penn & Cornell? Thoughts This could really update and improve our league for the long-haul. More parity overall….
what about Northwestern, NYU or Tufts (a big stretch, I know) — compare and contrast!
April 2nd, 2009 at 2:51 pm
NYU and Tufts? Seriously?
April 2nd, 2009 at 3:14 pm
For real… The LEAGUE is an athletic conference (albiet with some socio-cultural undertones), not an apparatus by which you can replace social skills and friends with prestige. G-Town is jesuit, never played big time football, and was never a rival of any Ivies. Duke has no inferiority complex it needs to assauge by going Ivy and would laugh all the way back to the ACC bank if asked to join (along with, again, having no connection what so ever to the the schools that make up the Ivy League). NYU and Tufts are academically cornell’s bitch and D3. Anon is right by saying those schools with historic Ivy connections are the Patriot league schools, Colgate especially. If the league was to expand or kick out Cornell, ‘Gate is the closest fit. But even then, Colgate and the Patriots are mostly small, liberal arts schools, which are again, less selective than Cornell.
April 2nd, 2009 at 3:54 pm
your comments about Duke having no inferiority comments raises an interesting question — which current Ivy school would be harmed the most (prestige-wise, ranking-wise, etc) if it were to have its Ivy status suddenly revoked?
April 2nd, 2009 at 3:56 pm
sorry, meant “inferiority complex” in above post…
April 2nd, 2009 at 4:41 pm
I think UPenn probably has the toughest time market-wise. HYP are household names, a fair amount of people people have heard of Columbia, Darmouth, and Brown, thanks to The Office people know of Cornell, but Penn has the issue of being confused with PSU.
This is to say nothing of actual caliber, but I think UPenn would lose the most by not having ‘Ivy League’ attached to it.
April 2nd, 2009 at 7:36 pm
Look, when it comes to history, government, psych, english, etc… there’s no question, cornell sucks monkey butt. I mean, any school with a triple digit number of english majors really deserves a state school rep, but, some things to consider…
1. Number one architecture. consistently. unarguably.
2. Engineering really is leaps and bounds ahead of the other ivies. It’s one of the top 10 programs, with a top-5 comp sci, choice mechanical, chemical and ECE dep’ts, and #1 applied physics.
3. Pure science is also pretty good, but not exactly princeton. still, C.U. physics is the #5 grad program, and chem & astro kick but too. They also have a particle accelerator, which no other ivy has.
And yes, wrestling and hockey rock at Cornell. But the ivy league (at least today) isn’t really about sports or even academics. it’s about selectivity and prestige, and Cornell admittedly has neither. if you want top candidates to replace Cornell and Penn, it’s easily Stanford and M.I.T. They’re selective and known throughout the world. Tufts and NYU? Complete bullshit.
April 2nd, 2009 at 8:11 pm
1.)Tell me this, ithication: If M.I.T joined the Ivy League, what the FUCK would it do? Field crew and squash teams (non divisional sports)? Or just release papers reminding everyone that the Ivy League is really prestigous? The statment that the Ivy League is not about sports at an every day operations level is preposterous. Although, Im sure Stanford would love to fly its football team to the butt crack of Mass. and brutalize Dartmouth. Its not like they could be playing CAL or USC anyway.
2.) Regarding international standing: No one outside the US gives a shit about PENN, Dartmouth or Brown. Cornell, however, has an outstanding international rep. I agree with intersting in that PENN would suffer most from losing its Ivy status (I attend, btw).
April 2nd, 2009 at 9:07 pm
All of you people amaze me…Why does everything have to be a competition as to who is better? who really cares? They’re all good schools. You go to college to learn and not to gain an superior attitude. I would probably rather hand out with people from community college than you dull elitist pricks…They’re are more important things in life than proving your supremacy. It your happy at the school your at that is all that matters.
April 2nd, 2009 at 10:24 pm
Thank you Reason. Point number 2 is dead on, but I would fix it to say no one outside the east coast of the US gives a shit about Penn, Dartmouth, or Brown. All the other Ivy leagues have plenty of international prestige.
April 3rd, 2009 at 1:53 pm
Can’t we all just get along?
-Rodney King
LSU ‘82
Geaux Tigers!
April 3rd, 2009 at 11:40 pm
Which of these is not like the others?
1. In Deo speramus
2. In lumine Tuo videbimus lumen
3. I would found an institution where any person can find instruction in any study.
4. Vox clamantis in deserto
5. Veritas
6. Dei sub numine viget
7. Leges sine moribus vanae
8. Lux et veritas
Apparently the NY State Legislature didn’t get the memo about a Latin motto.
April 4th, 2009 at 10:51 pm
I agree, a latin motto is totally a pre-req. for being an excellent university. Just look at the University of Misssissippi. Its done wonders for them.
April 7th, 2009 at 2:52 pm
Cornell: worse than BYU?
http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2009/03/16/ncaa
April 7th, 2009 at 4:21 pm
Try leaving duffield once in a while. Look up the A/S rankings and get back to me. English? Shitty? Look again.
April 8th, 2009 at 4:21 pm
How do all the Ivy’s really rank — not the silly us news deal — but rather, how does society truly perceive them? You can take into account academics, campus, etc — but also factor-in prestige, mystique, all that “intangibles” stuff.
Here’s my list to start, in descending rank order:
Harv — world cultural elite; i concede, it’s the top of the heap and still sets the tone for the establishment. full of goofy pricks who need a good beating, but instead will always be catered to…
Yale — a half-step behind. kinda looser and nuttier though than Hahvahd. but after they get that out of their system — it’s onto the inner corridors of power. gothic splendor in a ghetto
Princeton — full of itself, and manages to fool the world about how great they are (slight inferiority complex to H & Y) — but they do wield alot of influence in society. elitism is a sport here. wealthiest/waspiest brand — equating it to perceived social prestige, but completely boring. definitely could use some more ethnic representation to shake things up
Columbia — tied-in with the influence of NY, clearly Obama now also helps. lots of over-achieving ethnic kids who’ve greatly jacked up the academic profile, but seems to have lessened social prestige with established upper-crust elitists.
Dartmouth (my school) — leader, a-hole-types (class pres, football captains, etc) not the best with academics — but old-boy connections will still get us through. i admit, most aren’t so concerned about classes — we’re drinking ourselves to death. but even with a C average, we’ll stumble our way somehow into the corner office
Brown — liberal chic. misguided clowns — still, lots of connections and influence within the american establishment. classic limousine liberals who attack the upper-crust, yet all secretly enjoy being a part of it
Cornell — blue-collar. smart kids who’ll make it on their own even if they’re not connected with the elite. note that i’m only counting the arts&sciences — the rest is irrelevant. basically a safety, but with over-indexing minority/foreign segment strong in science, engineering etc — hire these kids later on when you’re running a company. Good branding status internationally
Penn — nouveau, ethnic-elite, and social-climby. good school, lots of choices — but tries too hard to convince you they’re ivy due to zero name recognition. don’t know where they’d be without the ivy league label. wharton helps a little, but it’s still seen as vulgar by the true upper-crust. classic safety, but a fun place to party
April 12th, 2009 at 6:04 pm
while i’m all for kicking out cornell, let’s not forget the worst ivy of all: DARTMOUTH. seriously, what the fuck is so great about that shit school.
April 12th, 2009 at 7:28 pm
@Cayuga
You started this meme in order to stick it to the prestige whores?
Well, that went well.
April 19th, 2009 at 10:48 am
Apparently no one here knows geography. The Ivy League, or Ancient Eight, was established based on geography. At the most, Cornell is probably six hours away from the farther Ivies like Princeton and Dartmouth. Georgetown? Stanford? Duke? Get real! Georgetown is probably 10-12 hours away from Dartmouth, 10 hours away from Harvard, and so on. Do I even need to explain Stanford and Duke? And besides, you can look up almost any national college ranking, and it would have Cornell ranked above Dartmouth and Brown (academically), so I do not see why this is even a discussion. The facts are out there, just go look for yourself rather than bash my college with minimal knowledge. We are called the Ancient Eight for a reason…
Go Big Red!
April 19th, 2009 at 12:53 pm
Cornell above both Dartmouth and Brown?
I point you to these: http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/college/national-search
April 22nd, 2009 at 3:33 am
The author of that article not only made faulty conclusions, he also had his facts wrong. He incorrectly stated that Andrew Dickson White was educated at Michigan. He went to Yale and taught at Michigan.
As for his argument that Cornell doesn’t belong in the Ivy League –
In terms of endowment size, Cornell was above most other Ivy’s (except HYP) before the crash. It’s tough to gauge size after the crash since the private equity investments held by many others are illiquid and not priced (recorded @ fair value/cost not market value). In terms of geographical location, Dartmouth is in the sticks too, and Yale’s location in New Haven is suspect if only urban metropolis locations are acceptable. In terms of “competitive” sports, Cornell doesn’t have to worry. It’s never going to have a nationally competitive football or basketball team. Who cares about hockey and LC? Most people are more interested in table tennis or pocket pool anyways. Hockey is for Canerdians. Perhaps Brown should be kicked out too if US News rankings are the say-all.
April 22nd, 2009 at 3:33 am
The author of that article not only made faulty conclusions, he also had his facts wrong. He incorrectly stated that Andrew Dickson White was educated at Michigan. He went to Yale and taught at Michigan.
As for his argument that Cornell doesn’t belong in the Ivy League –
In terms of endowment size, Cornell was above most other Ivy’s (except HYP) before the crash. It’s tough to gauge size after the crash since the private equity investments held by many others are illiquid and not priced (recorded @ fair value/cost not market value). In terms of geographical location, Dartmouth is in the sticks too, and Yale’s location in New Haven is suspect if only urban metropolis locations are acceptable. In terms of “competitive” sports, Cornell doesn’t have to worry. It’s never going to have a nationally competitive football or basketball team. Who cares about hockey and LC? Most people are more interested in table tennis or pocket pool anyways. Hockey is for Canerdians. Perhaps Brown should be kicked out too if US News rankings are the say-all.
April 22nd, 2009 at 10:03 am
Cornell’s endowment size “above most other Ivy’s”?
Harvard>Yale>Princeton>Columbia>UPenn>Cornell
Check pretty much anywhere. That puts Cornell distinctly in the bottom half, and not more than most excluding HYP.
May 12th, 2009 at 3:43 am
No one cares how each Ivy stacks up except for the elitist pricks at HYP. So what if Cornell isn’t as prestigious? And stop bashing the Ag School. Where else can you get an Ivy league education for less then $30 a year? Oh right, ILR and Hum-Ec
May 12th, 2009 at 8:48 am
lol i guess we really are all brothers.
we all fight amongst ourselves, but when we graduate/grow up we stand together when necessary, even if we still like ribbing each other every now and then
November 2nd, 2009 at 5:34 pm
Cornell is so dumb.