How To Sneak Into The Ivy League, Or Why Columbia Is Not As Selective As You Think It Is
IvyGate's Guide to Admissions: Part III
Your dream school is Columbia, but your intuition (or that flaccid rejection letter) tells you that you're not Columbia material. What is one to do, aside from attending NYU? In this five-point guide, we explain how to gain that coveted admissions letter from this neoclassical jewel on the hill. But be forewarned: Columbia is known to induce extreme feelings of academic inadequacy, general sleep-deprivation, and a social life (and for some a sex life) that revolves around the Butler library.
1. Do well at another school (read: get straight A's and suck up to profs who will write your recommendation letters) and re-apply as a transfer. This is the obvious choice, and the choice that has the least stigma. Transfers, especially those to CC, make other CC students feel good about themselves. Every time they see a transfer they think to themselves, "See some people do want to be here." And if you've transferred from Yale, say, or Harvard, it helps prove to them that hey, so what if I got rejected to them in high school, I live in New York City and it's omfgawesome. But it doesn't really qualify as a backdoor since it's also the hardest way of getting in. For this year's freshmen, Columbia College's acceptance rate was 8.68% and SEAS's acceptance rate was 17.6%, for an overall admit rate of 10.04%. The acceptance rate for transfers is even lower. Out of 1,401 applicants to the College and SEAS, only 112 students were admitted, or 7.99%. It's a shot in the dark, but maybe, if you really hate the school you landed at and you act like annoying grade-obsessed gunner in all your classes you might as well give it a try.
2. Apply as a freshman or transfer to Columbia-affiliated Barnard College. The women's college has been a source of endless debate and angst ever since Columbia College went coeducational in the early eighties, after years of failed discussions to integrate with the University at large. No one, not even the president of Barnard, seems to really understand the school's tangled relationship with Columbia. On one hand the Barnard website touts the fact that "Barnard has its own campus, faculty, administration, trustees, operating budget, and endowment." On the other hand, Barnard students receive Columbia email addresses, have full access to Columbia classes and student organizations, and earn degrees signed by both Barnard and Columbia presidents. Most gripes around Barnard center around the fact that its students get in easier but are de facto Columbia students. (The acceptance rates for this year's freshmen and transfers were 28.5% and 29.1%, respectively). Angsty prestige-driven Columbians should be more concerned about recruited athletes, don't you think?
More backdoors after the jump.
3. Take a year or more off college and apply to the non-trad School of General Studies. If you haven't taken a year off college at some point since you've graduated high school, it's going to be tricky to explain why you're applying to the non-trad division of Columbia. If you're say an Iraq War veteran, Jewish (see below), a trapeze artist, or a single mother living in the Bronx, it's going to be easier. As long as you have decent grades, reqs, and a great "life story," GS should be a shoo-in. Ideally, you'll want to have a huge outside scholarship or a boatload of cash: the only financial aid most students qualify for are loans.
4. Be (or become!) Jewish and apply to List College at the Jewish Theological Seminary. If you're Jewish and either have (or can fake) an interest in Judaism, JTS is probably the best way to backdoor into Columbia. Prospective JTS undergrads must either apply as a double-degree student with Barnard, or as a joint degree student with Columbia GS; you cannot be admitted into List College without also being admitted to either Barnard or GS. Not only do you dodge the stigma of being a non-trad student - 85% of JTS students finish both of their degrees in four years and typically jump into the program straight out of high school - but you also have a good reason for being at Barnard or GS in the first place. (According to the College Board, 61% of applicants get in; a FAQ on the JTS website states, "Students who are accepted typically have As and Bs on their high school transcripts and have taken a rigorous course load for four years. Students tend to score in the mid-600s on each of the three sections of the SAT. The average ACT score is between 29 and 31." With grades and test scores like that it'd be difficult to get into Cornell.
5. Matriculate at a liberal arts college or university without an engineering program and apply to the 3/2 Combined Plan Program at SEAS. If you attend one of ninety-odd affiliated liberal arts colleges and universities, take the right pre-requisites, earn a 3.0 or better overall and in your pre-engineering courses, and receive three favorable recs, you are guaranteed admission into the School of Engineering and Applied Science at Columbia. And given this backdoor's lack of selectivity, it seems that even students applying from schools without a formal affiliation can get in without much trouble. Out of the myriad ways to finagle your way into Columbia, this is probably one of the best deals you can get; not only are you effectively like any other traditional transfer student - eligible for on-campus housing, need-based financial aid, etc. - but you also get to earn two degrees, and have hopefully experienced three years of the good life at a non-Ivy/non-neurotic school in the bucolic hinterlands of America.
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Read more: 3/2, Barnard, Columbia, general studies, ivygate guide to admissions, Jewish Theological Seminary, SEAS, transferring
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January 15th, 2009 at 7:18 pm
That last one is pretty amazing.
January 15th, 2009 at 8:41 pm
Yeah #5!
January 15th, 2009 at 9:07 pm
Columbia’s low acceptance rate is such a joke. So many people from around the country and especially NYC apply just b/c it’s in NYC. “OH COOOL SHOPPING!!!”
And Barnard… Good God.
January 16th, 2009 at 12:57 am
wait…but all those ways other than transferring and i suppose the 3/2 combined program don’t get you into columbia college or seas, the undergrad schools people are so crazy about going to. it’s a backdoor to columbia university but not the actual “ivy” columbia.
January 16th, 2009 at 3:53 am
Just to correct what “what” said: GS is part of the “ivy” Columbia. There was much debate when I represented GS/Columbia on Ivy Council as to whether Barnard should have representation on Ivy Council (a GS student made the argument for inclusion), but ultimately the tangled relationship between BC and Columbia results in Barnard not being an Ivy, per the IVC’s definition.
Not all BC students have Columbia email addresses, at least not when I was there, so I’m not sure why some do and some do not. If I’m not mistaken, Barnard is more difficult to get into than CC.
January 16th, 2009 at 2:06 pm
GS Ivy Council: You are mistaken. Barnard has a much higher acceptance rate than CC. If you’re male, I suppose it’s more difficult to get into Barnard though. All BC students have a columbia.edu email address by virtue of their UNI, which works both @barnard.edu and (as an alias) @columbia.edu.
I agree though that attending GS is virtually identical to attending CC, with a few course requirement differences and the lack of financial aid and housing.
January 16th, 2009 at 2:39 pm
Barack Obama transferred to Columbia from Occidental.
January 16th, 2009 at 6:42 pm
Columbia is tiny and in NYC; that’s why it appears to be so selective, boasting acceptance rates in the neighborhood of Yale or Stanford.
In reality, it has precisely the same SAT averages and HS rank percentages as Brown/Penn/Dartmouth.
I’m sure that some Columbia kids are going to hate on Penn/Brown/Dartmouth right now, but the fact is that Columbia is not more selective – at all.
January 16th, 2009 at 7:02 pm
Come on, let’s have a flame war!!!!
I’ll start. I got into Dartmouth, Penn, and Columbia, and chose Penn. Why? Because Dartmouth kids just want to drink all day, Columbia kids just want to wear black denim and talk about metonymy, neo-____ism and Sartre, but Penn kids can do both at once!
Oh yeah, it’s also been ranked higher for like 12 years, but who’s counting.
January 16th, 2009 at 8:06 pm
You’re a freshman. You don’t get to have an opinion on your own school, let alone other ones.
Penn vs Columbia is a debate that will never end. Penn advocates point to US News, Columbia advocates point to acceptance rate. Both are pointless measures.
January 16th, 2009 at 10:31 pm
“With grades and test scores like that it’d be difficult to get into Cornell.”
Haha- dishing out the state school hate, I see.
January 16th, 2009 at 11:30 pm
Fuck you, Penn ‘12. You don’t know shit about Dartmouth kids.
January 16th, 2009 at 11:41 pm
Backdoor method 1 is also known as the Obama approach
January 17th, 2009 at 12:01 am
oh penn12, how wrong you are.
actually penn’s middle 50% sat and average hs gpa are both lower than columbia. and, not to mention, the cc admit rate (8%) is literally have of the penn admit rate (16%).
January 17th, 2009 at 2:46 am
Incorrect, Penn bests Columbia in both areas. I have facts on my side. http://www.admissionsconsultants.com/college/columbia.asp
http://www.admissionsconsultants.com/college/penn.asp
SAT middle 50% ranges:
Columbia: 1980 – 2220
Penn: 1980 – 2250
Percentage of kids in top 10% in HS class:
Columbia: 94%
Penn: 96%
Now, you’re comparing CC’s admit rate (8%) to Penn SAS’s admit rate (15%, not to be confused with the overall admit rate of 16%). It’s true that Columbia’s is much lower, but that’s simply due to its size. It is NOT indicative of student quality, which as I’ve demonstrated above seems fairly equal.
Accordingly, US News is not fooled by this. Indeed, Columbia’s admit rate is lower than Princeton’s, but few people would consider Columbia students that much smarter.
Have at you!!!
January 17th, 2009 at 3:27 am
Totally wrong, I’m afraid.
SAT middle 50%:
Columbia: 1980 – 2220
Penn: 1980 – 2250
Students in top 10% of HS class:
Columbia: 94%
Penn: 96%
http://www.admissionsconsultants.com/college/ivy_league_table.asp
January 17th, 2009 at 6:23 am
That’s absolutely ridiculous. Barnard is NOT a back door. We go to Barnard because we WANT to go to Barnard. Perhaps it’s the small class sizes, the sense of sisterhood, flexible core or the liberal arts education. Granted, Barnard is more appealing than say, Mount Holyoke , because it’s coupled with Columbia, but for the most part, if we wanted to go to Columbia College we would have just applied there. Barnard is ranked the most competitive Women’s College in the United States. Columbia, however, is not ranked highest out of the ivy league.
January 17th, 2009 at 9:08 am
BC12, as touching as it is for you to declare your love for your school, the great majority of Barnard students would not have been accepted into Columbia. Barnard may be ranked the most competitive women’s college, but because it draws from a much smaller pool of applicants, it is not half as competitive as Columbia, whose ranking in the Ivy League may be disputed but is still an Ivy League school.
As for the Penn v. Columbia debate, pointless. Let’s move on, shall we?
January 17th, 2009 at 11:55 am
Penn — carried by Wharton, especially in a rag like US News beholden to other interests.
Barnard/Columbia — people pissed off ’cause they paid a higher price (working hard in h.s.) to put Columbia on a resume when a Barnard grad can do the same thing… anxiety over the idea that somehow letting in Barnard into ‘Ivy’ status will result in a diminution of the Columbia/Ivy brand
January 17th, 2009 at 12:16 pm
The Penn/Columbia debate can be resolved easily. How many Penn students do you know that also got into Columbia?
Barnard students always claim that they went to Barnard because it’s what they wanted but that they easily could have gone to Columbia had they not been feminists who enjoy having to explain their quirky choices to others. It’s funny to me that these same people almost always say they go to Columbia when you first meet them until you dig out the fact that they are actually Barnard students. Barnard would be a fine school in its own right, but it is indeed a back door into Columbia.
January 17th, 2009 at 2:18 pm
you guys are all snobs. this blog is gross. get over yourselves.
January 17th, 2009 at 5:51 pm
Actually, Penn ‘12 was right:
SAT middle 50%:
Penn: 1980 – 2250
Columbia: 1980 – 2220
Students in top 10% of HS class:
Columbia: 94%
Penn: 96%
From http://www.admissionsconsultants.com/college/ivy_league_table.asp
As for the differing acceptance rates: that’s really only a metric of school size. As I’ve demonstrated above, the student quality seems to be about the same. Columbia, however, has a much smaller class to fill. Penn gets more applicants, but it’s also like 65% larger, so it seems pretty impressive that their admit rate is as low as it is.
Columbia has a lower admit rate than Princeton, but are their students that much better? No. Admit rates do not define selectivity. US News obviously has not been fooled in this regar
January 17th, 2009 at 7:42 pm
To Penn ‘11, you are an absolute moron. In terms of student population size, Columbia is in no way “tiny.” Columbia has close to 7,000 undergrads, in comparison to Harvard which is about the same size, while Brown, Yale, Dartmouth, and Princeton all have a much smaller undergrad student body (I’ll exclude Cornell, because well…it’s cornell). Penn is the only ivy (sans cornell) with more than 10,000 students, and the reason is that the admissions department makes room for all those who confuse the school with Penn State. Penn has always been carried by Wharton, but with today’s economic climate, who knows how long that will last.
I’ll admit that Columbia is probably as selective as it is because of its location, but it makes sense. The school plays a very large part in NYC affairs, and a lot of classes have students make use of NYC, with the abundance of museums, internships, concerts, and other events. Not to mention, New York’s history has been very much shaped by Columbia. So for all those who say that Columbia only has people who apply for location, I’ll admit to that at times, but it’s a hell of a lot better than west Philly.
January 17th, 2009 at 8:37 pm
CC ‘10, your argument makes no sense. First of all, Penn is 9800 undergrads, or about 2400 per class. That’s much larger than Columbia, but it’s not because “admissions department makes room for all those who confuse the school with Penn State.” I’m not sure what that means, or how it makes sense.
Penn is carried by Wharton? Hardly. Penn CAS’s overall admit rate is 15%, which is actually lower than the total admit rate of 16%. Furthermore, Wharton’s SAT average is only 14 points higher than CAS’s average, which only skews the averages slightly.
Finally, let’s compare student quality at Columbia and Penn:
SAT middle 50%:
Penn: 1980 – 2250
Columbia: 1980 – 2220
Students in top 10% of HS class:
Penn: 96%
Columbia: 94%
From http://www.admissionsconsultants.com/college/ivy_league_table.asp
As for the differing acceptance rates: that’s really only a metric of school size. As I’ve demonstrated above, the student quality seems to be about the same. Columbia, however, has a much smaller class to fill. Penn gets more applicants, but it’s also like 65% larger, so it seems pretty impressive that their admit rate is as low as it is.
Columbia has a lower admit rate than Princeton, but are their students that much better? No. Admit rates do not alone define selectivity. US News obviously has not been fooled in this regard.
January 17th, 2009 at 9:48 pm
CC ‘10, your argument makes no sense. First of all, Penn is 9800 undergrads, or about 2400 per class. That’s much larger than Columbia, but it’s not because “admissions department makes room for all those who confuse the school with Penn State.” I’m not sure what that means, or how it makes sense.
Penn is carried by Wharton? Hardly. Penn CAS’s overall admit rate is 15%, which is actually lower than the total admit rate of 16%. Furthermore, Wharton’s SAT average is only 14 points higher than CAS’s average, which only skews the averages slightly.
Finally, let’s compare student quality at Columbia and Penn:
SAT middle 50%:
Penn: 1980 – 2250
Columbia: 1980 – 2220
Students in top 10% of HS class:
Penn: 96%
Columbia: 94%
From http://www.admissionsconsultants.com/college/ivy_league_table.asp
As for the differing acceptance rates: that’s really only a metric of school size. As I’ve demonstrated above, the student quality seems to be about the same. Columbia, however, has a much smaller class to fill. Penn gets more applicants, but it’s also like 65% larger, so it seems pretty impressive that their admit rate is as low as it is.
Columbia has a lower admit rate than Princeton, but are their students that much better? No. Admit rates do not alone define selectivity. US News obviously has not been fooled in this regard.
January 17th, 2009 at 9:55 pm
CC ‘10, your argument makes no sense. First of all, Penn is 9800 undergrads, or about 2400 per class. That’s much larger than Columbia, but it’s not because “admissions department makes room for all those who confuse the school with Penn State.” I’m not sure what that means, or how it makes sense.
Penn is carried by Wharton? Hardly. Penn CAS’s overall admit rate is 15%, which is actually lower than the total admit rate of 16%. Furthermore, Wharton’s SAT average is only 14 points higher than CAS’s average, which only skews the averages slightly.
Finally, let’s compare student quality at Columbia and Penn:
SAT middle 50%:
Penn: 1980 – 2250
Columbia: 1980 – 2220
Students in top 10% of HS class:
Penn: 96%
Columbia: 94%
From w w w . a d m i s s i o n s c o n s u l t a n t s. c o m / c o l l e g e / i v y _ l e a g u e _ t a b l e . a s p
As for the differing acceptance rates: that’s really only a metric of school size. As I’ve demonstrated above, the student quality seems to be about the same. Columbia, however, has a much smaller class to fill. Penn gets more applicants, but it’s also like 65% larger, so it seems pretty impressive that their admit rate is as low as it is.
Columbia has a lower admit rate than Princeton, but are their students that much better? No. Admit rates do not alone define selectivity. US News obviously has not been fooled in this regard.
January 18th, 2009 at 1:55 am
CC ‘10: am I going to get a rebuttal? I know that I just handed your ass to you on a platter, but since it goes against conventional wisdom, I expect you to spew some vitriol back my way.
Or did I truly just pwn you?
January 18th, 2009 at 4:01 am
It is gauche to crow and to goad. Simply gauche.
January 18th, 2009 at 5:28 am
Perhaps, but within the present context it seems totally appropriate. Is it not further gauche to criticize Barnard? I feel that my comments are in line with the geist of this thread.
January 18th, 2009 at 12:35 pm
You all suck.
January 18th, 2009 at 12:38 pm
“With grades and test scores like that it’d be difficult to get into Cornell.”
“I’ll exclude Cornell, because well…it’s cornell).”
the ivy with the most applicants is Harvard. Followed by Cornell. And I don’t think Cornell’s getting the “oh i’m just applying because its ‘Cornell’” affect… so yeah. Columbia may be New York City’s ivy, but Cornell is New York State’s ivy. the upstate economy is a bit depressed at times, but the wine’s getting better every year. And we have a much better engineering program. so don’t hate.
January 18th, 2009 at 10:00 pm
Cornell gets the second most applicants, not because it’s popular, but because it’s friggin’ HUGE. From Wikipedia, the number of undergrads at each of the Ivys:
Cornell: 13,510
Penn: 10,163
Columbia: 6,923
Harvard: 6,715
Brown: 5,821
Yale: 5,316
Princeton: 4,918
Dartmouth: 4,147
If anything, it’s especially impressive that Harvard, which only has HALF the class size of Cornell, still gets more applications.
And compared to any of the other Ivy programs, Cornell’s land grant schools are a joke in terms of selectivity. They’re as much of an Ivy backdoor as anything else — shocked, shocked to hear that a non-trivial number of people internally transfer from them to A&S after a year.
January 19th, 2009 at 12:44 am
If a Barnard girl says she goes to Barnard and doesn’t mention Columbia, she’s probably very cool.
If a Barnard girl says she goes to Barnard, but immediately mentions Columbia, then she’s probably lame.
If a Barnard girl says she goes to Columbia, she has some issues.
And Penn, you’re adorable because Wharton is really top-notch, but you are out-done in most areas of the arts, natural sciences, and engineering disciplines by Columbia. Plus, New York is just way fucking better than Philadelphia, and that applies to whatever major you’re in.
January 19th, 2009 at 2:58 am
Quick Answers is correct. I personally don’t like NYC (too crowded, busy for my tastes), but I can understand how others really enjoy being there. On the other hand, Philly? Crime-ridden, depressing, and culturally inferior to NYC, Boston, and DC. Unless you’re a local, I don’t think anyone really aspires to move to Philly.
Fair or not, location is a major consideration in picking a college. Of the three Ivies in big cities (Harvard, Columbia, Penn), Penn got paired with the worst of three by far. Sorry, but that’s just the reality, and while Penn has improved a lot over the years, it’s clearly not at the Yale-level where it’s a no-brainer that going to the school is worth being stuck in the crappy area.
January 19th, 2009 at 6:46 am
I definitely agree that NYC>Boston>Philly. Regardless, Penn CAS student quality IS on par with Columbia (and Dartmouth and Brown), and I would certainly hesitate to say that Columbia disciplines and faculty beat Penn by any measure (besides for engineering, which still sucks at Columbia, just slightly less so).
Take, for example, the NRC rankings from 1995 (the last time they were taken) in some of the most popular majors:
Econ: Penn is 8, Columbia is 12
English: Penn is 8, Columbia is 9
Neuroscience: Penn is 10, Columbia is 6
History: Penn is 12, Columbia is 5
Engineering (all): Penn is 17, Columbia is 30
Psychology: Penn is 8, Columbia is 17
Religion: Penn is 10, Columbia is 14
Molecular Bio: Penn is 16, Columbia is 11
Anthropology: Penn is 6, Columbia is 16
I tried to get an eclectic yet common mix in there. As you can see, it’s pretty split. Both are incredible, essentially.
Quick Answers is correct in many ways; although Penn’s departments are as good as Columbia’s (and Yale’s, actually – in most of the above rankings, Yale was behind Penn or Columbia), and student quality is the same, NYC has immense drawing power. For many, this is the deciding factor. For others, it doesn’t matter, and they often choose Penn. See Penn ‘12 at the top of this thread – although, to be honest, her attitude is a bit grating.
I hope people find this answer helpful. I’m not trying to win the prestige battle here. Just wanted to help paint a fuller picture.
When the new NRC rankings come out, we can solve the prestige battle once and for all ;).
January 19th, 2009 at 1:37 pm
Wow.
This comments section is the exact type of self-important douchebaggery that Ivygate seeks to mock. Are we seriously comparing middle 50% SAT scores here?
And US News Rankings are mostly about perception anyway. They manipulate the formula so Harvard, Yale, and Princeton come out on top. The one year they decided to make it more ‘fair,’ Caltech ranked first. Maybe that wasn’t good for magazine sales, because the next year H-Y-P were at the top again.
January 19th, 2009 at 5:07 pm
Alright, I was in a bad mood before and I regret claiming Columbia is superior to Penn in practically every area. They’re all pretty far up there. Columbia’s engineering program has been really moving up lately, but is still far from a top-notch engineering school.
I think Penn vs CU might not solely be won by claiming CU has New York. If you’re into a more “college” scene, ie frats, more college-style bars, and a campus with actual grass, Penn is definitely a better fit than Columbia. However, if you’re into clubs, theater, and basically not just doing college-student things, Columbia might be a better choice. The downside to more opportunities is that it costs a shit ton more money to get something done in Manhattan, and going out to non-college bars and exploring the city takes a bit more of an outgoing and gung-ho attitude, which is hardly always a good thing to have.
January 19th, 2009 at 5:11 pm
The sad truth about most Columbia and Penn students is that they just didn’t get into (or didn’t bother applying to) HYP. Of course there are exceptions, and in hindsight the right choice was made, but I don’t kid myself into thinking that if I had applied and gotten into Princeton, I would have thought my 17 year-old self was the shit and gone there instead.
January 19th, 2009 at 5:32 pm
Of course that’s true. HYP are a level above Penn and Columbia in selectivity, and the vast majority of students would prefer to go there. It’s not as though going to a middle Ivy sucks, though; just as many kids are rejected from them as they are from the top. They’re still highly selective, and will get you the job you want. It’s a matter of social standing and cachet – immeasurable, practically unimportant, and yet completely tangible and meaningful in silly ways.
January 19th, 2009 at 7:51 pm
I’m sorry, I’ve been on a week-long whiskey bender. Did I miss anything important? No? Great. Is Robyn Schneider still working for this website? Yes? Aww, fuck. I hate her.
January 19th, 2009 at 8:11 pm
I got in to both Columbia and princeton, and I chose to go to Columbia for the city. The fact was that I didn’t want to live in backwater jersey, and a large city was important for my selection. As a junior, I am very happy to have made that choice. As for the comment saying that Columbia students are all students who were rejected by HYP, that is total bullshit! Columbia still has early admits, and they make up a sizable part of the student body. Aside from that, most everyone I know only applied to Columbia out of all the ivies. I don’t think Penn can say the same. On another note, I know a number of people who were rejected by Columbia, who only applied to Columbia out of all the ivies. They ended up at G-town and other good schools, but I think that the average Columbia student isn’t going to columbia to lay claim to the ivy league title. I can’t say the same for several other ivy league schools.
January 19th, 2009 at 9:41 pm
I got into 2 other Ivies besides Penn: Brown and Cornell. I didn’t apply to Columbia, because when I visited, the students didn’t seem at all interested in their alma mater as much as the city surrounding it (and understandably so). I was waitlisted at Harvard.
Between 46-50% of each current Columbia class is there because they want to be (ED-ers). The other 50-54% are RD students. This is exactly the same at Penn. Many had it as their first choice. Most Penn kids aren’t obsessed with the Ivy moniker; they just wanted an elite school with a classically collegiate social scene. Some invariably are a bit prestige-driven, but this is usually because they turned down Brown/Columbia/Dartmouth and then roil when laymen think they go to Penn State.
I’m a freshman, and there’s a kid on my hall in CAS who got into Harvard (off the waitlist), but had already committed to Penn and decided to stick with it. He really likes it here.
So, to conclude: yes, the pull of HYP is hard to resist. But no, this does not mean the kids at Columbia/Penn/Brown/Dartmouth are under-qualified compared to their HYP brethren.
January 20th, 2009 at 1:34 am
Went to Columbia undergrad, now at Princeton for PhD work. It’s the same fucking undergraduate body at all of these schools: people who are geeks that try to only hint at it while complaining about how much work they have to do while not doing it.
January 20th, 2009 at 2:36 pm
I don’t think Columbia and Pen carry nearly as much cache as some of the other ivies in the real world (outside the NYC bubble). Perhaps in part due to their names? I’ve heard more than one “wait, U Penn isn’t a state school?” Dartmouth and Princeton, for example, just sound fancier and more venerable
January 20th, 2009 at 2:54 pm
Is “Columbia” not a fancy enough name? I’ve wondered about this too, and I attend the school.
January 20th, 2009 at 4:42 pm
I just never put Columbia in the same category as some of the others (fancy names schools, clearly) and was surprised come college application time to learn of its actual caliber. I imagine it could be perceived differently in the NYC-centric world (of which I claim no part).
January 20th, 2009 at 6:15 pm
I’m abroad in the UK right now, and all of my professors and fellow students have heard of Columbia and its prestige. It’s actually one of the most internationally recognized schools in the world, a fact that was proven this past year when Columbia got more internet mentions than any other university in the world. If by prestige you mean the most pretentious sounding name, I agree that Princeton and Dartmouth are tied. I also have interned in DC, California, and Hong Kong; all of which know the school.
January 20th, 2009 at 7:19 pm
I think I was clear that I AM talking about name association only and not whether or not someone’s heard of the school. The general public (distinct from academia and corporate business leaders you’ve interacted with) doesn’t get the same “wow factor” with Columbia and Penn, based on my personal experience.
January 20th, 2009 at 7:49 pm
That’s correct. The only college you can count on EVERYONE knowing is Harvard. In English-speaking countries, most people will know Yale as well. A few might know Princeton.
In Israel, people know also know Columbia/Penn/MIT. That’s all that I’m familiar with.
January 21st, 2009 at 11:49 am
are the kids in cornell as gay as i hear they are?
-harvard 2004
January 21st, 2009 at 3:34 pm
I think there’s an east coast bias here. Stanford has world wide recognition and the PAC 10 is more competitive than the Ivy football league.
January 21st, 2009 at 5:22 pm
Maybe, although the Ivy League is generally just a handy way to encompass most of the Elites in a single phrase, and address them all at once.
What I’m most interested in, though, is the dynamic between the lower Ivies. No one denies this basic ranking:
HYP
Wharton
Columbia/Penn CAS/Brown/Dartmouth
Cornell
But then you’ll find Cornell kids trying to co-opt Brown into their bottom rung, or upset Columbia kids trying to wish away Penn’s decade-old stride into the upper echelons, blaming it on Wharton or other nonsense. And yet it’s been proven that Brown’s selectivity is far above Cornell’s, and that Wharton does not skew US News beyond CAS’s SAT range (only 14 points below Wharton) or true admit rate (15%, the same number reported to US News).
And yet the arguments continue ad infinitum, because people refused to be convinced beyond their irrational prejudices or simple inferiority complexes. And it makes for a great blog, and a wonderful place for me to argue with everyone.
January 21st, 2009 at 6:27 pm
Personally, to settle the middle Ivy disputes, I’d go with the revealed preference data (i.e. where actual students went when they had the choice between two Ivies): http://www.nytimes.com/2006/09/17/weekinreview/17leonhardt.html and http://www.nytimes.com/imagepages/2006/09/17/weekinreview/20060917_LEONHARDT_CHART.html
They showed that the overall order was: HYP, Brown, Columbia, Dartmouth, Penn, Cornell. Obviously, size is a big factor (personally, I think Brown and Columbia are comparable prestige-wise and the better school is whichever one matches the environment you like more — big city or small city). The same seems to be the case with Dartmouth and Penn, which were almost tied anyway (if you like rural, go with Dart, if you like urban, go with Penn). However, Cornell unsurprisingly got slaughtered by every other Ivy — this should end all talk of Cornell being anywhere but the cellar.
Also, the data interestingly shows that if Stanford were in the Ivy League, it’d be tied with Princeton for third place and competing respectably with Yale as well.
January 21st, 2009 at 11:50 pm
iheartcollege, you mustbeinhighschool. Go get laid.
Because I can’t resist this cock-measuring contest, I’ll just throw this one out there: Tuck is superior to Wharton.
But aside from that small bit, there’s no measurable difference between any top-15, even any top-20 university. I reiterate: you all suck.
January 21st, 2009 at 11:53 pm
P.S. Stanford has world-wide recognition (like most top U.S. schools), but remains yet an expensive school for rich Californians.
I hate to break it to you eager beavers, but “world-wide recognition” only matters on the graduate and faculty level. Unless your overflowing undergraduate classes are actually being taught be Nobel laureates, you have nothing to brag about.
January 22nd, 2009 at 12:53 am
iheartcollege, are you from Israel?
January 22nd, 2009 at 1:46 am
According to World’s Best Colleges (US News & World Report)
1. Harvard
2. Yale
10. Columbia
11. UPenn
12. Princeton
15. Cornell
27. Brown
54. Dartmouth
this list favors research and the sciences, but then again so do opinions outside the US. and since when did selectivity translate into good education, anyways?
January 22nd, 2009 at 2:06 am
I was born in America and live there currently, but I lived in Israel for a while and speak the language. I consider America my home, though. I teared up when Obama was inaugurated.
January 22nd, 2009 at 11:29 am
You can argue which school is better until you’re blue in the face. They are all high standard institutions and “Ivy League” means exceptional. Remember one thing, in all cases for a certain number of students who you know is just important as academics. HYP in particular.
As far as sneaking is concerned, Ivy League or not, going to a community collage and doing really well then transferring in always been a good route to take. It can save money and most of those students are much better prepared when they transfer to an Ivy League or higher educational institution.
January 22nd, 2009 at 12:33 pm
Joey gets to the heart of USN&WR’s most flawed fundamental premise: that a college’s quality can be measured by its mother university’s prestige.
January 22nd, 2009 at 2:54 pm
linsalata?
January 22nd, 2009 at 3:14 pm
I went to my first-choice school (CMU) in ‘85 and then discovered that I really should have looked at other schools. A friend from high school thought that Brown was the greatest thing since sliced bread and when I looked, I had to agree.
So I transferred in.
Was shocked to find out that my year’s admit rate for transfers was 8%. And then was shocked that I got in. But hey, whatever. I’m glad I went. Being a Brown person is awfully nice.
January 22nd, 2009 at 4:54 pm
Dartmouth’s transfer acceptance rate is about 5% and I’m sure the others are similar. And, a transfer applicant, you’re evaluated on your college record, not just high school, so you really have to shine. I and two others my year transferred to D from Columbia and the other 12 or so were pretty much all from top schools as well. You CANNOT transfer to D from a community college.
January 22nd, 2009 at 6:50 pm
i love going to brown!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
January 22nd, 2009 at 7:04 pm
Yeah, transferring really isn’t as easy as it sounds – except to Cornell, which has around a 30% transfer acceptance rate or something.
Columbia and Penn accept 8% and 10% respectively, Brown and Dartmouth a little less. Princeton accepts none, Yale about 5%, and Harvard really depends on the year – sometimes a lot of people transfer out the year previously, opening spots, and sometimes fewer leave.
I know for a fact that Columbia, Harvard and Penn will accept kids from schools outside of the top 30. They have to demonstrate intellectual ability and passion, but it definitely happens. For Brown, Dartmouth and Yale, I would assume this is the case as well, but I don’t actually know anyone who has done it.
January 23rd, 2009 at 8:35 pm
Actually, the 30% transfer acceptance rate at Cornell is only for the Contract Colleges because of something called Guaranteed Transfer (GT). Cornell gives this GT option to high school applicants. In non-contract colleges like Arts & Sciences, where there’s no GT, the transfer acceptance rate is closer to 12%
January 23rd, 2009 at 8:53 pm
The reason Cornell has a 30% transfer acceptance rate is only because of Guaranteed Transfers at the contract colleges. At non contract colleges in Cornell, like CAS or AAP, the transfer acceptance rate is closer to 12%.
January 23rd, 2009 at 8:54 pm
The reason Cornell has a 30% transfer acceptance rate is only because of Guaranteed Transfers at the contract colleges. At non contract colleges in Cornell, like CAS or AAP, the transfer acceptance rate is closer to 12%.
And Harvard isn’t accepting transfers right now
January 23rd, 2009 at 9:17 pm
Fuck you. Don’t double post. Are you that desperate to get your point across?
January 25th, 2009 at 3:10 am
omg, what’s each school’s middle 50% score for obsessive narcissism?
January 27th, 2009 at 8:06 pm
*sigh*
really, where you get your undergrad degree hardly matters anyways. just wait until the state-school 4.0 kid who enjoyed his undergrad a whole lot more and then went to an ivy (or similar top 20 school) for his MBA/law/medical/MS/PhD and gets the job.
February 4th, 2009 at 5:24 pm
LOOK!!!!!!! MY DICK IS BIGGER!! LOL
February 5th, 2009 at 10:19 pm
Why is everyone arguing about which ivy leagues are the best. If i get accepted into Columbia I will literally hug everyone i know. I think Columbia’s an awesome university. I want to get in so badddllllyy. it would be so awesome if i got in.
worrrkkking really hard preppring for SAT
:)
February 5th, 2009 at 10:21 pm
OH THY COlUMBIA
WANTTTT TO GET INTO THIS SCHOOL SO BADLY, IM REALLY DESPERATE, PRETTY OBVIOUS
February 6th, 2009 at 12:29 pm
These are 8 great schools–you are all fools balancing 14 douchebags on the head of a pin–appreciate your educations, and cease dumping on each other–and Barnard is certainly as much a part of Columbia University as is CC, Seas, and GS, (probably more so than GS and SEAS)–also the league began as the “IV” or ‘four’ league, as NYC sportswriters called it in the 1920’s–the four schools were indeed Harvard, Princeton, Columbia and Yale—Penn count your blessings and stop feeling so insecure in the Ivy–insecurity is a 200 yr U Penn tradition
February 6th, 2009 at 12:34 pm
If the diploma says Columbia University, you are a Columbia grad – Barnard ladies, welcome to the ivy league club for life–go fred barnard, you da man!
February 7th, 2009 at 10:50 pm
Hmm, obviously the ivies aren’t THAT hard if their students can spend, i mean, waste so much time online.
I want to go to any Ivy. If accepted to Harvard and Columbia, I would be very torn. My bro got into 5 ivies and chose Harvard. He regretted it. I am leaning toward Columbia.
March 3rd, 2009 at 10:29 pm
I was accepted to both UPenn and Columbia, but I wound up going to Columbia. Why? I looked at the rankings (which, by the way, are BS — Columbia should be ranked harder) and I joined both facebook groups to get a feel for the people in my class.
In the Columbia facebook group, though admittedly we had the small PARTYYEAHFUCKIN’AWESOME cadre of about ten people or so, the vast majority of discussion was interesting and generally well-thought-out.
By contrast, the Penn group came off as unintelligent (ThEy talked liek thisssssss and most cudln’t tell the diffrence btwn there their ‘n thare.) and obnoxious (one topic was something like — and I’m not joking — “Why do you deserve to go to Penn?”).
The fact of the matter is that Penn has a big draw to the people who started drinking when there were around 15, but managed to keep it to only on the weekends. A big part of this are the frats and sororities which dominate the campus and do their fucking part to spread homophobia and misogyny and eliminate as much intellectual thought as possible.
In sum: Penn is the “Ivy” for football players and cheerleaders who couldn’t make it into another Ivy (except maybe Dartmouth, but that probably wasn’t conservative enough for them). If they manage to matriculate before being shipped off to rehab, they will go on to the business world where they will steal money from the poor with the protection of the law. Some may know this as Wall Street.
March 3rd, 2009 at 10:30 pm
Excuse me, I meant *when THEY were about around 15.
March 3rd, 2009 at 10:50 pm
.. Are y-you. Are you done now?
I take it you don’t like Columbia that much either. At least not now.
Or are you one of those?
March 4th, 2009 at 3:23 am
Why wouldn’t I like Columbia?
April 6th, 2009 at 10:34 pm
You’re just jealous.
April 6th, 2009 at 10:37 pm
Yes i am
April 7th, 2009 at 3:04 pm
barnard is not a real ivy league school. in fact, if you go around saying you went to columbia and then it comes out that you went to barnard everyone is going to think that you are pathetic and desperate enough to claim membership in the ivy league when in fact you went to the leading women’s college(!!!!!! WHO CARES?)
same thing goes if you claim you went to an ivy league school and went to cornell.
April 9th, 2009 at 2:38 pm
The whole Barnard-Columbia debate is fucking dumb…We get the Columbia degrees in the end, don’t we? So why dont you Columbia-going Barnard-haters shove a stick up your ass and stop hating on us. You’re just mad you dont get the best of both worlds like we do…
PS. Women who graduate from Barnard have been known to do better than women who graduate from Columbia. SO HA!
April 13th, 2009 at 12:48 pm
SCREW BARNARD. IT ISNT COLUMBIA. if you didnt get a freakin acceptance from columbia dont go around saying you are affiliated with columbia. so screw off.
April 15th, 2009 at 12:56 am
There’s a lot of anger here. So which to choose? Dartmouth or Columbia?
May 10th, 2009 at 10:30 pm
Dartmouth, clearly!
May 18th, 2009 at 11:04 am
It’s interesting how a poster above is so right!
I met thsi lovely russian-jew girl the other night at this latin-themed club in Manhattan. After chatting and dancing to MANY different rythms and realizing how many ppl we had in common, then came the moment of truth…..after a few drinks I asked her to what school does she go to.
I for one attend Fordham, a pretty good school on its own, and she, quite the smart girl, said those magical words: “Columbia”. I was enamored to say the least.
Then, me being the curious cat, asked her what school, SAES, CC, which one? Then she uttered in a murmur “Barnard”……I was astonished to say the least!
Im aware that this is not the firt or the last time Barnard girls do that…..my ONLY question is….why?!
-F’ham Guy
June 1st, 2009 at 4:27 pm
Who cares what got which ranking? Honestly, if any of you chose a school based on its stats alone, you may be very depressed there. Some of you may be altogether happy but I know I chose Columbia for so much more than its stats. For one, when I arrived on campus, I instantly felt at home. My gut told me to go to Columbia. And of course, I am a city kid who has lived two hours away from New York for 14 years and would love to live there full time. I honestly pity those who debate over which Ivy is better. Stop trying to put your university on a pedestal that it is already on! There is absolutely no need for it. As for the Barnard-Columbia debate, give up the fighting. Nothing has ever or will ever come of it except some meaningless age-old fight that really is quite preposterous if you stand at a distance and look at the situation. Ladies, you hate Barnard girls “cUzz deyY stAnk AnndD dEy sTeaalL y0ur boiz” right? Well those ladies who do hate the Barnard girls for that reason, THERE IS A WHOLE CITY SPANNING THOUSANDS OF BLOCKS OUTSIDE THE FUCKING GATES YOU TOOLS! I visited Columbia for a couple of nights this year and was turned off by the constant back and forth bickering and belittlement. Anyway, do what you want. But, please, keep the peace around me for Heaven’s sake.
June 3rd, 2009 at 12:23 pm
hey pre-frosh – no one wants to hear you preach. kthxbai
June 3rd, 2009 at 3:06 pm
@fordham guy
Yea, wait till you start interviewing people for jobs and you start seeing “Columbia University” on resumes…
June 11th, 2009 at 11:43 pm
This is so beyond sad and pathetic. PLEASE go forth into the world, stop your aimless nit-picking, and find something worthwhile to do with all of your talent, intelligence, work-ethic, etc. instead of self-aggrandizing and bitching about. Now that’s eloquent, if I do say so myself.
June 24th, 2009 at 9:31 pm
I’m going to Barnard. Yes, Columbia was my first choice. I have the highest respect for those who gained admission to Columbia. Being a white female makes it the hardest to get in, so I found another way.
This can be applied in the “real world.” When you’re turned down, get in some other way.
June 25th, 2009 at 2:47 pm
Shalom to you all, I’m working on number 5!
July 21st, 2009 at 4:42 pm
BROWN’S THE SHIT, BITCH.
October 21st, 2009 at 8:28 pm
What about us gals who went to Barnard before Columbia started accepting women? We have CU degrees, isn’t that Ivy League? There was no other option for women at that time.
October 22nd, 2009 at 6:58 am
holy shit CU started accepting women in the EIGHTIES?! :O
October 22nd, 2009 at 7:06 am
I got in at Stanford, Harvard and Columbia and chose CU in the end. Columbia is simply the second best after HYP, and depending on your field (arts, business?) can be better than them. Imagine being a fine arts or art history major in New Haven and being one in NYC. Clearly superior. :) Didn’t bother applying to Dart, Penn or others.